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| Ex-Colgate Head Coach Emmett Davis |
A bit of non-NCAA Tournament news cropped up today, as Colgate Athletic Director David Roach fired Coach Emmett Davis after 13 seasons at the helm of the Raiders with an overall record of 165-212. While it's been suggested a few times here that it's amazing he lasted that long, his trip to the 2008 Patriot League final (where, of course, he lost to us) likely played a hand in keeping him around for three additional seasons. Unfortunately for Davis, that was the best record (18 wins in 2007-08) he ever produced up in Hamilton, which has sat at the bottom of the Patriot League barrel in both wins and average attendance for quite some time. This year the Raiders were 7-23, including record-setting blowouts to national powers Syracuse and Duke, and 4-10 in the PL.
For the Patriot League school that produced NBA player Adonal Foyle, that's a sad state of affairs, and while I don't often root for our opponents, I do hope things improve basketball-wise at Colgate for the sake of the League. At the end of the day, it's a hockey school, but if they can land the right coach, anything can happen.
Other factoids:
- Davis becomes the second Patriot League coach in three years to end his career in Bender Arena. Holy Cross' Ralph Willard played his last game in Bender when the Crusaders lost in the 2009 Patriot League Championship, before moving on to serve as an assistant to Rick Pitino at Louisville. Davis' last game was this year's PL Quarterfinal in Bender.
- Davis' 165 wins place him as the all-time winningest coach in Colgate annals, which is more a factor of time than season-by-season success
- Currently only Lafayette's Fran O'Hanlon has served as a Patriot League longer than Coach Jones, with 16 seasons at the helm of the Leopards. Jones just finished his eleventh.
- Jones' record with the Eagles at the conclusion of this season is currently 182-150
- Finally, to mix things up a little more in Hamilton, Colgate announced the resignation of Women's Basketball Coach Pamela Bass as well today. In four seasons her record stood at 23-95 overall, and 8-48 in the Patriot League, so she likely saw the axe coming as well.
Pro Deo Et Patria,
Josh
I hope Jeff Jones is fired soon too.
ReplyDelete@JDF
ReplyDeleteCan you tell me just who you think would do a better job than Jones? His recruiting needs work, but he does well with the players he has. He always gets his teams to the PL semifinals, he came close to winning an NCAA tournament game, and he took UVA to the elite eight.
Has he made questionable decisions? Sure. But I seriously doubt you'll find a better coach for this program.
Agreed Bobby. At this point, I don't see any sort of personnel change at the coaching level doing anything but bringing us down a notch and slowing momentum. Jones has a few good years left, and he likes where he is and his best chance to move back up the ranks likely passed in 2009, which is great for us and fine for him if he's happy (which, all reports say, he is). Now, if we don't go dancing for another 4-5 years, get back to me, because Jones has succeeded in setting the AU Basketball bar significantly higher than it was prior to him taking the job. However, if you look at who held his position before him, we essentially had a coaching black hole for about a decade. Eleven years of (mostly very successful) stability is a very nice counterbalance.
ReplyDeleteHe can't recruit and is a mediocre coach. I really wouldn't mind letting him go. There's definitely not a shortage of basketball coaches in this country, something tells me we could get a few that are interested. Jones has had 2 good years out of 12...I'm not sure anyone should ever classify that as success. If you need any example just look at Bucknell...they've held themselves to high standard and get results. Let's not hold ourselves to such a low standard that you say we couldn't "find a better coach for this program"...that's just insulting.
ReplyDeleteWhile I am nothing but a realist, I don't think it is neither too optimistic or unrealistic to say there is a better coach out there for AU than Jeff Jones.
Maybe I hold this program to a higher standard then all of you, but I've never met a person who believes Jeff Jones is a fantastic coach. The fact is he simply isn't. Transfers aside, he is a average patriot league recruiter as well.
Like I said, you can say he's great all you want. But saying something is great is always relative. If you'd like to compare us to where we've been..then sure we're better. But that's like saying I run faster now than when I did when I was 3 years old....that doesn't mean I shouldn't try to stop getting faster.
For me, I'm going to think bigger when it comes to this program (although comparing us against Bucknell would be the likely next step). Jeff Jones has taken this program very far, but his time is up. We'll thank him for his contributions and continue to take greater steps. I struggle to believe he can take us there.
- JDF
While I agree with parts of all of your arguments, I do disagree with judging Jones by his time at UVA. That was 15 years ago with a completely different set of circumstances. If people are seriously still judging him by what he did over 15 years ago and not simply and only by what he did in his current position....well...all is lost. The fact is he's had success, and has put the program in a good place, but please, let's not confuse this with a legendary coach who simply cannot be replaced. He's a patriot league coach with limited success. I graduated in 2009 and can tell you that before the success of the '08 team, there were serious calls for Jones' dismissal. "Fire Jeff Jones" was the most common cheer in Bender. Let's recognize him for his recent success but not forget about his many failures. If you have both in mind, the debate can lean both ways.
ReplyDeleteHere we go again.
ReplyDeleteNo one is saying JJ can't be replaced. What I ask--what I have always asked--is who do you replace him with? Don't give me this lowest common denominator, talk radio nonsense where you want the coach fired because he doesn't win a championship every year, but have no solution. Give me specifics. Give me names. Don't just say 'I'm sure there's some assistant out there who'd love a chance.' We went that route. His name was Art Perry. His career record was 34-78, 27-58 at AU.
If you fire JJ, you have to hire someone who's going to think of AU as a destination, not a launching point. I don't want some kid who comes here for three years, bends a few rules to prop up his won-loss record, then leaves us holding the bag. I also don't want some old-timer who is looking for one last payday, like Lefty at JMU. Among the many reasons I fully back JJ is that he wants to be here. He's not looking to move back to the ACC or go to the CAA or SEC. He wants to be the head coach at American University, and wants to stay here. That counts for a lot with me.
Do you think the Josh Pastners of the world are going to have AU on their radar when it's their turn to be head coaches? We are not going to get the "hot young assistant" from a major program. Nor are we going to get the solid assistant from a mid-major. Chris Caputo is not coming here. What we're going to get...is someone like Jeff Jones, somebody who's looking for a second chance. But we already have him.
Anonymous, I'm sorry, but..Bucknell? They've won three PL titles, and just lost by a zillion to UConn in the first round of the NCAAs. We've won two PL titles, and were up 14 in the second half in Philly against a Philly team that went to the Final Four. For that you think they're the "standard," and we should fire our coach? If there's any program that is the standard in the PL, it's Holy Cross (five PL titles).
I respect the opinions of everyone here. But I do think some of you who are a little younger need some perspective. This program was dead in the water for 30 years. I don't want to go back to the days when we were mediocre in every sport and, other than men's soccer, never won anything. This last decade has been the most successful in the history of the school, and it's for two reasons: 1) the move to the PL, and 2) coaches like Jeff Jones, and Barry Goldberg, and Mark Cody, who was just named the national wrestling coach of the year. That does not mean I think JJ is without fault and hasn't made mistakes. I do not think he is John Wooden as a coach, or John Calipari as a recruiter. I think he is as good as we are ever going to get here, and stay here. If there is someone out there who's better, and who will make AU his home for a while, give me a name.
But NJJ, don't you know that young, energetic coaches like Brad Stevens and Shaka Smart are a dime a dozen? We should TOTALLY get a guy like that!
ReplyDeleteNot JJ, you're right. I understand. There is nobody else in a country of 300 million who is both:
ReplyDelete1. A better coach than Jeff Jones
2. Wants to coach at American University to help build the program.
Looks like we got 1 in 300 million!!
Again, to make progress, sometimes you need to let go of the guys who helped you and go in another direction.
The following are things that I believe you didn't read into correctly in my past statement:
1. Did I ever say I want him fired because he didn't win a championship every year? No. I said I want him fired because he is an awful coach who had 2 good years out of 12 (or 13? sorry..not completely sure)
2. Your statement that because we can't "name names" as to who the next coach should be somehow makes Jeff Jones the only viable candidate is completely and utterly absurd. Do I work in college basketball? Do I have the names of highly qualified AAU and high school coaches? I am well versed in Divsion 1, 2, and 3 candidates? Hell no. Are you kidding? Because I can't name names, JJ is automatically the best option out there?? You gotta be joking. Pick another argument.
3. If you don't want to accept that Bucknell isn't a program to emulate than at least pick A program....don't just compare us against our past. Because that is again, absurd. Because...like I stated before....OF COURSE we are better than our past...and have much of that to thank from Jeff Jones. Everyone here needs to start looking towards the future, and not the past. We need to start looking at other programs that are a step up...and COPYING what they do. That's simply how the WORLD gets better. I'm talking basketball to business. You need to look at another program and see how they got better. Comparing against the past, is (to try another analogy) like saying I don't think I can get any smarter because I'm already smarter than when I was 5. It's equally as absurd.
Lastly,
If you'd like to argue that the reason Jeff Jones should continue being the coach of AU is because he is a good coach and a good recruiter...than go right ahead. I think this would be the most logical argument. Unfortunately, I think it says a lot that I've never heard anyone use this argument. It has always been "well....he's the best thing we could get". I found that overly telling...and unfortunately, sincerely depressing..
JDF:
ReplyDeleteNo. You don't get to hide behind the lame talk radio "fire the coach, but I have no real solution" nonsense. That's just ranting with no purpose. I don't expect you to know every assistant coach in America, but, yes, I do expect a specific answer when I ask, with whom would you replace the most successful coach in school history? Everybody and their brother at Maryland wanted Friedgen fired, but when they replaced with Randy Edsall, nobody was happy. That's what happens when ranting is allowed to dictate policy. You come up with a bs solution.
You say JJ is an "awful" coach. Really? An "awful" coach won 181 games in 11 years, and at least 16 games per year in nine of those 11 seasons? That's ludicrous. By that standard, Gary Williams is an "awful" coach because he's only won two ACC titles in 21 years. And Kevin Stallings is "awful" because he's never won an SEC title at Vanderbilt, even though he's won 236 games there in 12 years. Come on.
It is "absurd" to compare us to our past? What planet are you on? What else are we supposed to compare AU to? GW's past? We were at one level when JJ got here. We're at another level now. Do I want the level to rise above where JJ has it now? Of course I do. But I also know that a program like ours doesn't have the history or luxury of making a hiring mistake. THAT'S why you remember history. So you don't repeat it. And that's why you have to be very careful when assessing a coach's performance at a school like AU. There really isn't that much higher we can go.
You want to be a real mid-major? Okay. Jim Larranaga's last contract extension at Mason is for three years (through 2015) and $1.5 million. Do you have some secret list of AU alumni that will write that check? By the way, that doesn't include the $50K bonus Larranaga gets every time Mason makes the NCAAs, or the $150K Mason pledged to put into promoting the basketball program. I don't know AU's total athletic budget, but I suspect $150K would be a good chunk of it. Mark Few is making at least $750K a year at Gonzaga, and it's probably closer to, if not in excess of, $1 million. And none of the above includes the additional money that would be necessary to improve our facilities and recruiting budgets if we want to continue bringing in higher-quality athletes that can graduate. A kid with a 1200 SAT that can ball probably doesn't have AU on his radar, sad to say. So if we "look to the future," that's what it will cost. Minimum. Are you in? Are you ready to pay that kind of freight? That's how Mason and Gonzaga and Butler got better. They paid big bucks. If you're an alum, you ready to start writing checks to defray that kind of cost? Otherwise, you're not for real.
I have always backed JJ because I think he is a very good coach and a solid recruiter, who has won more than anyone else did in 40 years, graduated most of his players and wants to be here, not somewhere else. I have never said "he's the best we can do." I have only challenged people like yourself to name me someone else who's better, and available, and affordable, and willing. I'm still waiting.
While I agree with some of your points, I think we simply disagree on principle. I don't believe Jeff Jones is a very good coach. As someone who doesn't have any more knowledge than playing 4 years varsity in high school, I can tell you from my point of view, he simply is not a very good coach. Has he gotten far? Sure. Has he improved the program? Sure. Was he a good enough coach to take a highly talented team to the first round of the tournament? Yes.
ReplyDeleteBut my thought on a good basketball coach is this: He makes the team better than simply the culmination of the pure skills of the players on the floor. Unfortunately, I don't think he has this ability. Did he bring a great team to the NCAA tournament vs. Villanova and almost beat them? Yes. And it was quite impressive. But I will always believe that team would have been up by 14 vs Villanova, with or without JJ on the bench. There accomplishments equaled their skill on their floor. It wasn't any sort of great strategy and game-play. It was just Mercer, Carr, and Gilmore being one of the greatest trios in Patriot League history.
Now should he get credit for developing players? To a point, but from everyone I've ever talked to, he isn't known as a very good teacher of the game. This comes from managers and players themselves.
So from my point of view:
1. He is a good defensive coach.
2. He is significantly below average in creating a fitting offensive strategy for his team..leading to him relying far too much on the pure skill of his players (it worked with Carr, Mercer, and Gilmore....not so much with Vlad, Brewer, and Lumpkins...and for that matter almost any other players found in the PL)
3. He is a average PL recruiter.
4. He is below-average teacher.
Now if you're wondering where I got this analysis from, well. Myself. I'm writing on a blog. So, if you're looking for me to give you feasibility report from looking at AU's past financial statements...sorry man...but I think you've come to the wrong place.
So here's my prediction:
AU will not return to the NCAA tournament for the next 5 years. Once the recruiting bubble, caused by going to the tournament 2 yrs in a row, bursts...and we begin to recruit the same fairly over-matched players as we used to, AU fans and administration will come to realize that Jeff Jones simply does not have the skills to make this program a Patriot League Power (and please...don't tell me we already are...).
Last thing, I can't name a coach. No one can. That doesn't make me an idiot, or a uneducated fan on a radio show (that you seem to be constantly pointing out), nor does it prove your point in the least. People make careers out of finding coaches. If I said that I couldn't name you someone that should run for President, that doesn't mean Obama should be President for life. It just means that I don't know. Yet, with all the probability and logic in the world...something tells me there is a person out there who would do it and be better at it.
Saying things like "I have only challenged people like yourself to name me someone else who's better..." doesn't show anything. In fact, it shows more naivety that you believe someone COULD it all realistically name someone without doing significant vetting and interviewing. As someone who does not work for AU, don't you think if someone like ME could name a coach he would already be hired by the university? Do you really believe we are on the exact same page as the professionals who run our basketball program to the point where if WE can't name a coach, then THEY can't name a coach either?
God help us if we know just as much as they do. Because if that's true, AU isn't going anywhere.
I totally agree with JDF that Jones is not a good offensive coach. I have watched our offense for many years and it is purely limited to running plays for players Jones believes are our go to guys. As a general rule that works. But when faced with an off night ( such as Lafayette) by our go to guys the rest of the team has not been in the position to score because they never have been asked to. I doubt that there are any plays in the play book beyond our go to guys.
ReplyDeleteWatching the NCAA'S is so refreshing because I see so much more on ball screens and ball movement than we ever show. Watch Kentucky. As good as Knight is they sometimes set not one but two on ball screens much like Bucknell did this year.
Jones is a good coach but his theory is to limit the other team to 60-65 points, slow the ball down and hope you score 61-66. O'hanlon who I believe to be the best coach in the Patriot league has limited talent on his team. By the end of the year his team performs well because he has incorporated everyone in the offense and they are in a position to contribute at year end.
Although I think JJ is far from perfect, calling for his replacement seems ridiculous to me. He produced two PL Championships recently and this year's team was clearly the second best team in the league. Getting two tranfers from the SEC also was a feather in his cap. I'm not sure how far we'll get with them, but I guess we will find out next year.
ReplyDeleteThis year, I thought our off the ball movement was the best I've ever seen at AU.
FYI....Vlad will be playing in the Reese's College All-Star Game at the Final 4
ReplyDeleteIs that on TV?
ReplyDelete